Thursday, December 5, 2013

Wiccans Who Work With Saints

I'm at a total loss of words. I see this happening more and more, Wiccans are uploading videos to YouTube "teaching" people how to work with the saints, writing blog entries on it, or writing articles for pagan websites.  I just find this so funny because Wiccans of the past rejected any association with Christianity. In fact, it would simply not be allowed for a Wiccan to work with the saints.

I guess the main problems I have is that many of these Wiccans are just winging it and then teaching what they made-up as tradition. Let me just stress this real fast, working with the saints has absolutely nothing to do with Wicca. They are really not compatible. The other problem I have is the religious philosophical debate of why a pagan would seek a Christian saint out for aid. Again, this is why the Wiccans of the past would never approve nor allow this activity in their own covens. To seek out a Christian saint would in fact be acknowledging Christianity above their god and goddess, who are supposed to be able to empower everything a Wiccan does, magic-wise.

I  guess I should stress that the Wiccans who do this aren't real Wiccans. I don't want to invoke a "no true Scotsman" debate, it's just that real Wiccans are initiated into a Gardnerian coven or a coven that can trace it's lineage back to Gardner. Real Wiccans do not accept non-initiated, solitary, eclectic self-titled Wiccans as being Wiccans. Instead, they appear to refer to them as "pagans", or at lest the Gardnerians I have talked to do so. It's these solitary, eclectic pagans who usually are the ones who dabble with the saints.


11 comments:

  1. This is timely, I posted a little blurb earlier on my reaction to finding out even Silver Ravenwolf thinks she can teach conjure now... http://coyotemoonconjure.blogspot.com/2013/12/hold-me.html

    And not just conjure, but Braucherei.

    I need to go hug my oma...

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    1. She claims there are such things as "pagan Braucherei", like they are split into two camps, those who were always pagan and those who incorporated Christianity. Lying, money-hungry cunt. It's always been Christian. There's no such thing as a pagan version of it.

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    2. Ugggghhhh!!! No no no! There's the Anabaptists and the Lutherans. My oma and family were always very involved in German-American social communities and organizations. I've never come across even a whiff of non-Christianity.

      Another thing that bothers me is all this hex signs as magic talismans nonsense. They are NOT. It would be like saying anything with a four-leaf clover or horseshoe or star must somehow have been made with magical intent.

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  2. If you really want a laugh, listen to a NeoWiccan try to claim that Mary is just a cover for The Goddess and Christianity is really all stolen from paganism.

    I'm not talking about the stuff that was actually synchronized to up conversion rates. I mean the ones who think Catholic mass itself was stolen from "the old ways", when just the opposite is true! So much of Wicca was modeled on/stolen from Christian Cabalistic ceremonial magic.

    I've talked to a few NeoWiccans who think that saints are basically gods and goddess, Mary is the Goddess, and God is the Horned God, and Christians have no idea what they're actually worshiping.

    So I guess they're willing to stop whinging about "The Burning Times" because hoodoo is all the rage?

    This reminds me so much of the "plastic shamans" of the 90s.

    This is why actual pagans go out of their way to let people know they aren't Wiccan.

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  3. I'm a Christian and I don't work with Saints: I'm Protestant! It's so crazy to me that everyone is jumping on the Saint bandwagon.

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  4. It's like chaos magicians! they just experiment with what works and bring results. Pagans and wiccans though always had the reputation for just mixing and matching things, and very ancient religion did the same. Xtianity and Judaism were influenced by other religions and customs. We should all be respectful though, and if saints don't want to work with them, they'll move on to something else.

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    1. A number of Saints are converted pagans who worked hard to preach Christianity, even at the expense of their lives. I really wonder how forceful some of them might be with someone who petitions them but refuses to convert.

      Now, I don't view myself as Catholic (or Christian, truthfully), but growing up Catholic I never, ever heard about Saints crossing people up. Now I hear accounts online about all kinds of crazy stuff happening to people who've worked with certain saints. Some stuff is just nonsense, like women saying that St. Martha has attacked them in dreams by throwing snakes at them. (That damn statue is NOT St. Martha, it's Mami Wata!) But other stuff... well, if you were a martyr for your religion, how would YOU feel about being treated like a vending machine? I have the same concerns and worries for them as when they treat the Lwa and Orisha the same way.

      I actually work with a few "god/ddesses", but to me they are very old spirits working under the same Divinity. Like angels, in a way. I don't believe in telling people "No, you cannot venerate/worship X", because everyone is free to find their own truth in life. But when you just go around just looking for the spirits who are the "coolest" or most likely to give you what you want.. then we have a real problem.

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    2. Chaos Magickians don't exactly just work with whatever is the coolest thing at the moment. Chaotes utilize different systems of magick when it will bring results. Say, the best way to get a certain person elected is to pull down a right-wing fundamentalist paradigm. The chaos magickian may commit themselves fully to that reality for the time being till the outcome is achieved. This means they may become a Southern Baptist or an Evangelical Christian for the time being, but really give it gusto, till the outcome falls into their favor. They may find themselves doing things like taking up snakes and speaking in tongues because that feels like a direct link to the magick of that paradigm. But they will also probably be using sigil magick along with it.

      When the spell has been "fired" or the result is acheived, the Chaote returns to her former self, forgetting about the work done.

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    3. Oh I didn't mean chaos magic with that "coolest" part, that was about the NeoWiccan crowd. Believe me, I know all about chaos magic.

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    4. Oh okay. Some Wiccans are alright, but from my experience, the majority are a bunch of self-righteous assholes.

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    5. I'm always either tickled or caught in a precarious position when the "These damn Wiccans" conversations occur. I am raised Wiccan (Alexandrian lingeaged), however, I am also an initiate in a few different non-Wiccan systems of magick.

      I was brought up with the understanding that although Wicca is my religion (meaning my primary source of spiritual nourishment), the system of magick I choose to employ doesn't necessarily have to be Wiccan. My parents encouraged me to learn about other forms and styles of magick, and to even develop a reliable skill with working them. One thing my parents were sticklers for was that if I'm gonna practice, say Hoodoo, then I practice Hoodoo, and not some idea that I'm calling "Hoodoo". I think because a lot of people practice some idea called "Wicca" (something I know my parents sometimes get annoyed with), they have always stressed that I not make that same mistake with other systems. Basically, even though they encourage exploration and integration, they only permit it when done within the authentic context.

      So, like I said, these types of conversations can be kinda weird for me; because I get it, but I'm also a Wiccan. Lol

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